Death of a Game: Archeage

Discuss the game state, current & future Events and issues of Archeage with the community.
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Aeducan
Site Admin
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:32 am

Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:28 pm

Hi there,

we´re recovering a bit of censored history here from the Trion official forums

The official AA forum user "Orio", a guy i have played with for quite some time on Sirothe, posted a video on the official forums.

As we will learn later, this was his try to attact "trolls" to flame him in an attempt to make his inaccurate claims more valid, because other ppl would "scream" at him.
Yeah i know. Idiotic logic.

The video in question was this one "Death of a Game: ArcheAge ":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyLdfaUTJP8&t=1s

The creator of this video is nerdSlayer. He´s really good at making these videos.
The most positive aspect is, he is not ranting, just summarizing, with on occasional side jab towards the publisher in this case.

The vid contained various intro and generic gameplay footage. It also contained a detailed section on how players used the infamous "Apex Dupe" (which was really a re-use one Apex multiple times bug) and some cheat tool allowing teleports and half-flying long range jumps, as well as a potential link to a site where you can obtain said tools at the end.

This may sound bad, but it was no advertising of cheating, in my first view of the vid i didn´t really realise that content, just because i did just listen to it.

nerdSlayer is giving an accurate, general overview of the biggest issues that occured over the lifetime of Archeage, if not for the exploits shown, the official forum thread title "Archeage is ded:" chosen by Orio may have been enough to result in moderator action, since we know Trion can´t take any form of critisism, even if soundly founded.

Also what game dev has the actual backbone or balls to have "This game is ded" threads on the forums. Well some do and Trion did not delete every single one of "those" threads, but they are being pretty censoring about the content that stays.

After this thread was deleted, Orio started a new thread with the title
Things that CHANGED ARCHEAGE for better.


Since my Main account was temp banned from the forums, because i basically questioned moderator action by asking if we can have the discussion back without the video link, for no exploits were discussed other than the apex dupe and not in detail of how that was possible, i took the risk of posting with an alt account that is almost as old as the main account.

I was of course caught, since my alts are very easy to identify even by a single cell organism, due to the use of forwarding mail adresses i was banned after a vivid discussion with Orio.

A discussion where almost every time failed to make a reasonable statement or deliver a sound argument to some of his claims.

Having learned from the previous ban, i copied the main responses off and will restore them below.

But first i will copy Orios OP here so you don´t have to switch back to the official forums for it.

Aeducan
Site Admin
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:32 am

Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:29 pm

Orio wrote:Yesterday i intentionally put here one topic in order to attract certain type of forum posters but I failed at that. So lets put here my real opinion about certain "proven facts" which you can read on Reddit, make a stupid Youtube video and pretend you have ever played Archeage.

My point is that ppl who are STILL whining at Reddit about Archeage, seems to be stuck in 2014, and i hardly believe they ever played the game. They still keep repreating the narratives they were speaking back in 2014 and they didnt even tried to get those right and I even seen certain players to believe those. My goal is to put some facts here, while many of them are verifiable. Also to remind some people on this forum where we were then, and where we are now.

Other reason for writing this topic is fact that I run into exactly same rumors and falsehoods about the game.

I would NOT make any comment on my following statements (feel free to PM me), and I would definitely not go full whiteknight as I will comment some painful things.

(If there are information which are not supposed to be known, please let me know via PM and i will edit them out, or do it by yourselve but dont erase the post as a whole please)

This topic should also help to newcomers to make more informed opinion about the game.

Pay 2 Win
In times which followed patch 1.2 was introduced cash market and Apex. Later were also introduced even Rumbling Archeum Trees.

This is matter of fact, but it was in october 2014 and things have changed since. Lets put them here:

a) Worker Compensation was removed from credit shop
Its original version allowed almost unlimited influx of Labor into game and it was certainly broken and allowed P2W on large scale. Currently its only available for Loyalty (bound version for 25, tradeable for 35). Loyalty points restore 5 for login, and 3 additional can be collected if staying online for 3 hours for patrons.
Edit: Also labor potions are available from Labor stipends.

BTW nobody would pay for Character expansion scrolls in order to get more labor - as certain video suggested. People simply created new account with 2 character slots instead, used the labor, used the potion and transferred goods made this way to main character*

b) Rumbling archeum trees
Were removed from credit shop as well, and now are available only for loyalty points or merit badges (which you collect by completing quests). Also when Auroria was released, Archeum Tree saplings and Regrade braziers started to drop from the coinpurses, and can be farmed on Auroria - either for Archeum or Sunpoints/Moonpoints/Starpoints.

c) Regrade Charms
There was one false information circulating reddit. Red charms were NOT guaranteed 100% regrade success. They increased base chance BY 100%. Later was this re-translated to 2x.

That means when particular regrade had chance to success 10%, red regrade charm changed it to 20%. So, no matter what was said to you by a friend on reddit, there was no way how to get around RNG. That lead to confusion of many wanna-be whales, who paid for charms, tried critical regrade and it failed.

In current system are regrade chances transparent and regrading is less painful.

d) "Trion reduced drop of archeum compared to Korean version" being said back when version 1.2 came out.
This is quite a bold claim, but I wonder if it could be proven in any way. I certainly didnt challenged anybody if he can prove it. At this point I simply ask whats the other proof than "subjective feeling".

I can then safely claim that Thor saved mankind from race of Ice Giants. Why? Have you seen any Ice Giant?*


Crafting and RNG
Early days of Archeage introduced RNG mechanics at Illustrious and higher tier crafting.

First instance with removed RNG from the crafting were obsidian items, introduced back in 2015. RNG regrading on them was and still is part of the system. Stating that RNG was alleviated NOW with 3.5 is then nonsense.*

Currently, normal crafting requires you to craft an item, unseal, regrade a bit, re-seal (with transmuter) and then upgrade to higher tier. Upgrade path is therefore guaranteed up to Erenor.

Alternately there is possibility to upgrade even dungeon drop items up to Mistsong (equals tier 6 obsidian).

To sum it up, more Archeum, less RNG and no dead-end for crafting.

d) Apex
its an item which is purchased for real money, then can be traded with other players for gold (around 1000 atm in EU). When you use apex, it will provide 1250 credits.

If you ask me whether this is P2W, I answer "Yes it is", there is one little catch...

To get really top tier weapons from auction, you require up to 150 000 gold.

If you are on the other side of the transaction - means you are buying Apex, you can pay for your 1 month patron by 2 apexes ~ roughly around 2000 gold. Also you can buy Apex from auction house for gold if you wish to purchase something for credits, without spending real money.

According to my knowledge, very similar system is available for EVE Online.


Currently there is far less attempts on P2W because the level of competition decreased (on most servers). Many people who tried the game, selected already high-population servers, where the competition and supposed help from credit card was more likely an option.

My tip on most of P2W topic is to select less populated server, and try some laidback playing. You will enjoy the game instead of being under pressure.


Apex Dupe
There certainly was an issue with Apex. Reddit and some people tend to claim that Trion never repaired damage which this exploit caused. Lets describe and dismantle certain myths which are still circulating reddit.

a) "Trion never fixed the impact on Economy"
Well... I checked certain different sources, not just Reddit or these forums. Russian forums, forums which belong to certain known persona who makes money on selling cheats, were full of messages that their characters and alts were banned, or the items which originated from the exploit were retroactively removed from the game for the following three months.*

b) "The exploit was safe and could not be detected"
This was never true for simple reason. When Apex was activated on client-side, gameservers contacted Account management server and "Confirmed the transaction".

Therefore discrepancies between actual Apex transactions ingame, and Apex purchases via Trion system were always detectable.

c) "There is no Apex dupe" blunder...
Well it was rather "multiple usage" of one item, rather making new items, but the denial in this form by Trion wasnt definitely in place.

d) What was the real impact on economy?
People who were at that time selling Working compensation potions, had to face plummetting prices for a while as there was literally infinite supply. Yes you got it right, it hurt mostly whales and P2W players. So ... anyone who told you that this destroyed economy is most likely a whale :)*

Bots, bots everywhere
On first three months since I was playing, it was certainly a rampant problem. Lets put into context few myths.

a) "Trion never banned bots"
In the early days since i started, I made hobby of hunting bots, and made usage from "Report" function for me as interesting source of labor points. At that point i was F2P, without patron.

Then after december 2014 was made an anouncement that 50 000 accounts were banned and amount of visible bots decreased on my server. Whole guild on Nebe was banned at this time. Therefore the statement above is a lie, there is a little "but"...

b) At some point i was continuing to make reports, but I never received back positive reply from GM, even when i reported obvious herd of bots.

c) Again russian and other hacker forums were quite full of "i tried to farm with 10 accounts with bots and every proxy IP i had was banned". Such information proves that anti-bot measures are in places.

d) "Rampant hacks"
Again my sources are really good at reporting "dont run this along with this, else you get instant ban". I am honest about how is client safe or not safe, but since Trion got rid of Hackshield (december 2015 if i am not mistaken), things got much better.


Certain events in the past and my commentary:

a) Auroria release
I wasnt much interested into this event, but its certain that some guilds were. Availability or unavailability of the service was certainly a problem for players who were interested in taking the castle, and each single player who could not log on meant problem.

I even found an information that some people were confused to the state when they believe that Castles cannot be sieged, once taken. IF were taken by group of cheaters or bot-farmers, then they could barely stand the test of time of the remaining community. And in my experience on server Nebe it didnt - castles were taken by harani and nuian guilds over nice fight.

b) Evolution/Merges and most massive loss of population game experienced.*

Whoever said that massive loss of population on Archeage was because of Apex dupe, Auroria release or anything else, does not have correct information, or is lying. The most massive loss of population was much much later.

Its certainly true that many players called for them, because of "more PVP". Their wish was fulfilled by Evolutions.

My server was about to get evolved. Within 3 months between announcement and actual evolution., jury queue dropped from 600 to 200.

So Sirothe started, and population of east was again 600. Within three months supposed "pvp" players noticed that they are being contested and instead of fighting back they either transferred, or stopped to play. Within three months server had 200 ppl on East jury queue and that number is stable to these days. This part of population is active. They are involved in raids for different types of content.

I can only expect that same scenario followed other evolved servers.


c) Release after the Evolutions.
Those who remember it correclty, know that after start it was almost impossible to login.

During these events I positively identified a server in Netherlands. Somebody paid some money to design an attack which would allow small group of "inner circle players" to take advantage of an empty servers.

Rollback was made, and servers were being restarted in segments to distribute the load, and it worked. Few people here on forum stated that Trion finally had done something right.


Supposedly toxic community
I didnt joined big guild, i didnt started to play with completely unknown players. I started to play with friends.

Some guildleaders tried to exploit the newcomers and scam them of their gold, labor or weapons and were succesfull at that. Game allows this, but of course those leaders could not stand on their position for too long. First they moved to pirate faction, and most of them left game over time. This early ... tactics surfaced few times on fresh start servers, and seriously harmed the population, but now and on mature servers is this strategy gone.

State of Economy
As I mentioned in one topic, 70 000 charcoals are traded every day, which can be translated into 52500 trade packs deliveries done every day within EU cluster. You can find materials or items you need or want. Amount of trade done everyday, and availability of different goods is for me the sign that economy is healthy.

Continuity
Without toxic guildleaders, without overly competetive p2w players, anyone can enjoy one of the best MMOs, including casual players. I dont think we need new fresh starts, or merges.

From the events which happened I hope Trion and XL learned their lesson. We as a customers STILL have to push for better quality of the game (speaking mainly of bugs now), but the game and its systems got much better over time, community got better over time.


It is true that Archeage need more players.
a) There was basically no advertising of AA in region where I live.
I am not sure about possibilities which Trion has here (central and eastern Europe). Said this, it might help with next point.

b) Its partially resposibility of guildleaders to recruit.
Before you start to ask for merges, or before you start to whine about low population, ask yourself if you invited someone who might like online game of this type. Dont even start to whine that "It would be better but Trion". What have YOU done to recruit more players?

Its an MMO RPG, people are not supposed to join a game to play it alone. They either start as a group, or will join one. Make them feel good on your servers.

* Those information are here specifically to dismantle lies and exxagerations which circulated Reddit for last three years, and YT user called "nerdSlayer" (supposedly working for gaming magazine) decided to circulate them further.



Also I would like to reply for one question. Did any Trion representative lied to me?

Yes, once... Scapes made statement that Archeum trees which were for a time available on Mirage Isle for a gilda stars, will remain intact after following patch. So i purchased 500 of them, and post patch they were useless. So i opened ticket to support and my gildas were refunded.

Edit:

I will add one question. I am imagining a situation that someone got interested in a game. You will receive information such as Reddit tend to spread all along. Would you put them to test, or simply trust them?

Aeducan
Site Admin
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:32 am

Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:30 pm

First reply by my alt:
Orio;2624406 wrote:Yesterday i intentionally put here one topic in order to attract certain type of forum posters but I failed at that. So lets put here my real opinion about certain "proven facts" which you can read on Reddit, make a stupid Youtube video and pretend you have ever played Archeage.
So you tried to lure ppl into a discussion where you could beat them by arguments and you failed because you had none. You showed off in said thread that you have no real grasp about the games history and the state of the economy (jury queue as a measurement of a healthy server population is quite delusional)

So you try to go the Anita Sarkeesian way and not discuss the buckload of nonsense you decide to pollute the internet with? Quite fine, but that is a main indicator how weak all your following arguments are.
Orio;2624406 wrote: Pay 2 Win
In times which followed patch 1.2 was introduced cash market and Apex. Later were also introduced even Rumbling Archeum Trees.

This is matter of fact, but it was in october 2014 and things have changed since. Lets put them here:
At least you realized this fact. The arguments in the vid posed a timeline of failures and why ppl have/had problems with archeage in the first place.
You were posting that video and asking for ppl to dislike it, because you want to do it the SJW way -> to not let ppl think on their own.

As for the changes below, yes, some things have been mended. Some things not or the long term damage was already done.

You neglect the fact, that while a economy, which in your narrowed world view are AH prices, can recover, while the lasting effects of p2p/p2w elements can only be removed from the game if a veteran quits, or yolos his gear.

Orio;2624406 wrote: a) Worker Compensation was removed from credit shop
Its original version allowed almost unlimited influx of Labor into game and it was certainly broken and allowed P2W on large scale. Currently its only available for Loyalty (bound version for 25, tradeable for 35). Loyalty points restore 5 for login, and 3 additional can be collected if staying online for 3 hours for patrons.

BTW nobody would pay for Character expansion scrolls in order to get more labor - as certain video suggested. People simply created new account with 2 character slots instead, used the labor, used the potion and transferred goods made this way to main character*
Again you´re far off reality. People used all char slots on cooldown for that. Since labor was region bound you could easily have 6 chars doing it.
And many did.

You´re one of the few players that claims to not use alts and that maybe true, that´you´re a dinosaur in that regard and far off the reality can´t be disregard nevertheless.
Orio;2624406 wrote: b) Rumbling archeum trees
Were removed from credit shop as well, and now are available only for loyalty points or merit badges (which you collect by completing quests). Also when Auroria was released, Archeum Tree saplings and Regrade braziers started to drop from the coinpurses, and can be farmed on Auroria - either for Archeum or Sunpoints/Moonpoints/Starpoints.
Minor wrong statement. For a very long no such thing was available in Auroria, the reason for the cash shop trees in the first place. It was an early day milking the customer phase.
While you are right that Regrade braziers later dropped, that was what? A year after Auroria? Can´t really remember but for a very long time ppl were dependant on the CS ones.
Orio;2624406 wrote: c) Regrade Charms
There was one false information circulating reddit. Red charms were NOT guaranteed 100% regrade success. They increased base chance BY 100%. Later was this re-translated to 2x.

That means when particular regrade had chance to success 10%, red regrade charm changed it to 20%. So, no matter what was said to you by a friend on reddit, there was no way how to get around RNG. That lead to confusion of many wanna-be whales, who paid for charms, tried critical regrade and it failed.

In current system are regrade chances transparent and regrading is less painful.
So a few guy misunderstood the effect of a charm, i mean when it sounds too good, it usually isn´t true.

I take you you try to discredit reddit here for being an unreliable source, which it is not. People can speak freely there. That is a good thing.

Also it´s debatable that the current regrade approach is less painful, because you need to regrade more regularly for each item tier and the destruction chance is still not transparent. (the latter state of 3.5 release)
Orio;2624406 wrote: d) "Trion reduced drop of archeum compared to Korean version" being said back when version 1.2 came out.
This is quite a bold claim, but I wonder if it could be proven in any way. I certainly didnt challenged anybody if he can prove it. At this point I simply ask whats the other proof than "subjective feeling".

I can then safely claim that Thor saved mankind from race of Ice Giants. Why? Have you seen any Ice Giant?*
On this i can only rely on the Alpha ppl who stated that drops were way better before 1.2.

Also Trion advertised many ways of getting archeum like the Ayanad Library in a very wrong way. Returns in archeum from even extensive farming in the library were quite meager and you couldn´t put a single Delph weapon together from 2-3 days work.
Orio;2624406 wrote: Crafting and RNG
Early days of Archeage introduced RNG mechanics at Illustrious and higher tier crafting.
First instance with removed RNG from the crafting were obsidian items, introduced back in 2015. RNG regrading on them was and still is part of the system. Stating that RNG was alleviated NOW with 3.5 is then nonsense.*
Currently, normal crafting requires you to craft an item, unseal, regrade a bit, re-seal (with transmuter) and then upgrade to higher tier. Upgrade path is therefore guaranteed up to Erenor.
Alternately there is possibility to upgrade even dungeon drop items up to Mistsong (equals tier 6 obsidian).
To sum it up, more Archeum, less RNG and no dead-end for crafting.
This one is acutally quite accurate.
Orio;2624406 wrote: d) Apex
its an item which is purchased for real money, then can be traded with other players for gold (around 1000 atm in EU). When you use apex, it will provide 1250 credits.
If you ask me whether this is P2W, I answer "Yes it is", there is one little catch...
To get really top tier weapons from auction, you require up to 150 000 gold.
If you are on the other side of the transaction - means you are buying Apex, you can pay for your 1 month patron by 2 apexes ~ roughly around 2000 gold. Also you can buy Apex from auction house for gold if you wish to purchase something for credits, without spending real money.
According to my knowledge, very similar system is available for EVE Online.

Currently there is far less attempts on P2W because the level of competition decreased (on most servers). Many people who tried the game, selected already high-population servers, where the competition and supposed help from credit card was more likely an option.

My tip on most of P2W topic is to select less populated server, and try some laidback playing. You will enjoy the game instead of being under pressure.
Apex is pay to progress and the only way f2p players can get patron. So i agree in terms f2p should not argue this, because someone paid their subscription for them, while they have just to use virtual, quite worthless gold.

Laid-back is sure a way to go, some ppl want to achieve max gear and they are turned off by the rng regrade progression which hasn´t gotten better -> more regrades required, more failures included.

I take it you refer to your home server, which is Sirothe, one of the quite lesser populated EU servers. It´s sure good for farmers and pack runners and probably one powerhouse guild.
Orio;2624406 wrote: Apex Dupe
There certainly was an issue with Apex. Reddit and some people tend to claim that Trion never repaired damage which this exploit caused. Lets describe and dismantle certain myths which are still circulating reddit.

a) "Trion never fixed the impact on Economy"
Well... I checked certain different sources, not just Reddit or these forums. Russian forums, forums which belong to certain known persona who makes money on selling cheats, were full of messages that their characters and alts were banned, or the items which originated from the exploit were retroactively removed from the game for the following three months.*

b) "The exploit was safe and could not be detected"
This was never true for simple reason. When Apex was activated on client-side, gameservers contacted Account management server and "Confirmed the transaction".

Therefore discrepancies between actual Apex transactions ingame, and Apex purchases via Trion system were always detectable.

c) "There is no Apex dupe" blunder...
Well it was rather "multiple usage" of one item, rather making new items, but the denial in this form by Trion wasnt definitely in place.

d) What was the real impact on economy?
People who were at that time selling Working compensation potions, had to face plummetting prices for a while as there was literally infinite supply. Yes you got it right, it hurt mostly whales and P2W players. So ... anyone who told you that this destroyed economy is most likely a whale :)*
a) They couldn´t back when the first apex dupe happened, they were able to ban the accounts or make them pay the duped apex back.
Of course the majority of the players never really bothered to pay back 100 Apex when they easily could transfer off the aquired cash shop items to an alternate account.
There wasn´t even an exploit needed because they could transfer those items to another char without Trion being able to track it at the time.

b) see a)

c) Denying Trions denial (well documented) is pure denial - you seem to get airline bonus miles for that.

d) Those were the short-sighted ppl, the clever ones kept the earnings and released them over time. Or bought the cheap overflow at the AH to sell it later.
The economy, in your view only the prices of certain items, recovered over time, which is to expected from consumables, but the advantage gained by the apex hack users was never remedied.
Orio;2624406 wrote: Bots, bots everywhere
On first three months since I was playing, it was certainly a rampant problem. Lets put into context few myths.

a) "Trion never banned bots"
In the early days since i started, I made hobby of hunting bots, and made usage from "Report" function for me as interesting source of labor points. At that point i was F2P, without patron.

Then after december 2014 was made an anouncement that 50 000 accounts were banned and amount of visible bots decreased on my server. Whole guild on Nebe was banned at this time. Therefore the statement above is a lie, there is a little "but"...

b) At some point i was continuing to make reports, but I never received back positive reply from GM, even when i reported obvious herd of bots.

c) Again russian and other hacker forums were quite full of "i tried to farm with 10 accounts with bots and every proxy IP i had was banned". Such information proves that anti-bot measures are in places.

d) "Rampant hacks"
Again my sources are really good at reporting "dont run this along with this, else you get instant ban". I am honest about how is client safe or not safe, but since Trion got rid of Hackshield (december 2015 if i am not mistaken), things got much better.
a) So what´s your point here? Ppl had the impression that Trion did nothing/not enough about the bots and their reaction time was sluggish.
50k bots after December 2014 (and the server down blunder which cost Trino approx. 30-50% of the playerbase) may sound like a big number, it is really not, compared to how easy new accounts can be made.

You could still find bots regularly in the usual farming spots. GM´s showed up every 10 years or so. The situation has gotten better as of today, but maybe that´s because gold sellers found more profitable game´s than AA due to the lack of customers -> there are but a few thousand accounts left in EU and not all unique players.
Orio;2624406 wrote: Certain events in the past and my commentary:

a) Auroria release
I wasnt much interested into this event, but its certain that some guilds were. Availability or unavailability of the service was certainly a problem for players who were interested in taking the castle, and each single player who could not log on meant problem.

I even found an information that some people were confused to the state when they believe that Castles cannot be sieged, once taken. IF were taken by group of cheaters or bot-farmers, then they could barely stand the test of time of the remaining community. And in my experience on server Nebe it didnt - castles were taken by harani and nuian guilds over nice fight.

b) Evolution/Merges and most massive loss of population game experienced.*

Whoever said that massive loss of population on Archeage was because of Apex dupe, Auroria release or anything else, does not have correct information, or is lying. The most massive loss of population was much much later.

Its certainly true that many players called for them, because of "more PVP". Their wish was fulfilled by Evolutions.

My server was about to get evolved. Within 3 months between announcement and actual evolution., jury queue dropped from 600 to 200.

So Sirothe started, and population of east was again 600. Within three months supposed "pvp" players noticed that they are being contested and instead of fighting back they either transferred, or stopped to play. Within three months server had 200 ppl on East jury queue and that number is stable to these days. This part of population is active. They are involved in raids for different types of content.

I can only expect that same scenario followed other evolved servers.


c) Release after the Evolutions.
Those who remember it correclty, know that after start it was almost impossible to login.

During these events I positively identified a server in Netherlands. Somebody paid some money to design an attack which would allow small group of "inner circle players" to take advantage of an empty servers.

Rollback was made, and servers were being restarted in segments to distribute the load, and it worked. Few people here on forum stated that Trion finally had done something right.
a) You seem to be involved in the later stages of the sieges (around 2.0) when sieging was quite easy compared to 1.2.
So yes - there have been improvements, but the issues with the castle/siege system in the early days were still true.

True and frustrating to the player base. Which resulted in an early exodus. Followed by another when the servers went offline for a few days around xmas 2014.

b) You seem to be rather focused on just one server, that even got evolved due to lacking player numbers. Yet you fail to witness the obvious decline in player base.

So... you really think a 200 ppl jury queue is a sign for a healthy server population? It´s not even all active players, but alts, though few ppl bother to actually do the jury questline for trade/craft alts.

I take it everyone with a common sense can see that 200 is a very low number on a veteran server.
Orio;2624406 wrote: Supposedly toxic community
I didnt joined big guild, i didnt started to play with completely unknown players. I started to play with friends.

Some guildleaders tried to exploit the newcomers and scam them of their gold, labor or weapons and were succesfull at that. Game allows this, but of course those leaders could not stand on their position for too long. First they moved to pirate faction, and most of them left game over time. This early ... tactics surfaced few times on fresh start servers, and seriously harmed the population, but now and on mature servers is this strategy gone.
That´s the main reason for an MMO. To play with friends or to find and play with them.

That´s also a main issue many leftover veteran players that endured to continous blunders of Trion´s publishing have -> their friends have all left because there´s so many flaws over the years that at some point they made the decision that it´s not fun anymore.

Scamming was always part of the game, so is PK. Some things can be solved with common sense, some only with big guns.

Orio;2624406 wrote: State of Economy
As I mentioned in one topic, 70 000 charcoals are traded every day, which can be translated into 52500 trade packs deliveries done every day within EU cluster. You can find materials or items you need or want. Amount of trade done everyday, and availability of different goods is for me the sign that economy is healthy.
How is that a sign for a healthy economy? Or even more server/region population.

So you´re on EU, that means 8 servers and one standalone FS AH wise.

52.500 packs split over 8 servers
6.563 packs per server, delivered by let´s say 20 per account that´s about
328 accounts on each server, most likely 30-60% of those are alts.

Even in the best scenario you have about 200 unique accounts per server. That´s not healty.

Ofc these numbers are not split evenly on the servers, so in case of your server this might actually be a lot lower.
Orio;2624406 wrote: Continuity
Without toxic guildleaders, without overly competetive p2w players, anyone can enjoy one of the best MMOs, including casual players. I dont think we need new fresh starts, or merges.

From the events which happened I hope Trion and XL learned their lesson. We as a customers STILL have to push for better quality of the game (speaking mainly of bugs now), but the game and its systems got much better over time, community got better over time.
Customers tried that since or even before the official launch.

While Trion may have limited influence on the general development of the game, they have impressivly shown over the years that they can have XL make changes that basically lead to more p2p.

Some of these factors have been removed, like the labor potions only for loyality, but other cash shop items have taken their place.
Orio;2624406 wrote: It is true that Archeage need more players.
a) There was basically no advertising of AA in region where I live.
I am not sure about possibilities which Trion has here (central and eastern Europe). Said this, it might help with next point.

b) Its partially resposibility of guildleaders to recruit.
Before you start to ask for merges, or before you start to whine about low population, ask yourself if you invited someone who might like online game of this type. Dont even start to whine that "It would be better but Trion". What have YOU done to recruit more players?

Its an MMO RPG, people are not supposed to join a game to play it alone. They either start as a group, or will join one. Make them feel good on your servers.

* Those information are here specifically to dismantle lies and exxagerations which circulated Reddit for last three years, and YT user called "nerdSlayer" (supposedly working for gaming magazine) decided to circulate them further.
a) All money went into developing the cash shop obviously ;)

b) If there are no (able) players, to recruit you have two options, transfer off or hope for a merge. Some guilds want to do more than the basic PvP events or even "own" the server.
You can only do that with dedicated players, not the casual ones.

On most low pop server you cannot even get a random dungeon group together in less than 10 minutes. That´s a factor that counts for ppl too.

Orio;2624406 wrote: Also I would like to reply for one question. Did any Trion representative lied to me?

Yes, once... Scapes made statement that Archeum trees which were for a time available on Mirage Isle for a gilda stars, will remain intact after following patch. So i purchased 500 of them, and post patch they were useless. So i opened ticket to support and my gildas were refunded.

Edit:

I will add one question. I am imagining a situation that someone got interested in a game. You will receive information such as Reddit tend to spread all along. Would you put them to test, or simply trust them?

While most ppl might have not been lied to, there are still plenty of examples in the history of AA.

The one you post ist a basic example of an issue that happened over and over again. Trion employess have no clue about the games content or upcoming patches.
Even if put on the test server (2 days before release), Trion seldomly has stopped the release of a patch even when players on PTS found massive bugs and glitches.
I can only barely remember ONE occasion, i believe it was around 2.0 where the release of a patch was postponed.

In that regard Trion has yet to improve as a publisher.

Last but not least:

You seem more intend to discredit Reddit as a platform, than to actually discuss the issues of AA, most of which you openly encounter with denial.

Why do people talk on reddit, rather than the official forums? The answer is quite simple, but it´s not because it´s a platform for liars.

Aeducan
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Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:31 pm

Second reply by my alt:

First off, thanks for not bein Anita Sarkeesian.
Orio;2624469 wrote:First of all I tried to find out how many troll accounts was created in last week on this forum. From time to time they start to appear and do always the same claims (which are in many cases outdated).
You fail to see the perspective here. The vid for example was a timeline. A journey many veteran player took and explains with a 99% accuracy why they left.
Orio;2624469 wrote: To reply your question, there is another option. Making certain actions related to crafting/regrading easier, and we are witnessing that since introduction of Obsidian.
Totally out of context. Obsidian made crafting a certain line easier. Not the general crafting nor regrading.

Orio;2624469 wrote: I will put it this way. Its cheaper to make more accounts and dont pay a dime, or to pay and expand every account?

I certainly made a claim when i said that people used multiple accounts. But we all know that game was full of half-afk-semi-alt-bots for a time + there was a claim by Trion that we have 2 000 000 accounts on Archeage.

With all respect, i believe my claim is more probable that yours. I can support mine.
Actually i am still waiting for any proof to that claim. You´re both ignoring the heavy use of additional char slots for basically unlimited labor as well as the standard potion use.

Debunked because denial.
Orio;2624469 wrote: Because I was not invested in arms-race before and after Auroria was released, I remember that for a certain time there were just Rumbling Archeum Trees, then Archeum trees for gilda stars, and later drop from coinpurses.

I was playing very casually before Obsidian items were released, and just after that we (guild) started to farm both archeum and regrade braziers. Before that I asked guildmates to farm gold from packs, and buy crafted items from auction (at that time Magnificent grade).
You basically just gave away the main reason why you´re out of touch with the issues that occured over AA´s lifetime.
Orio;2624469 wrote: One of the few myths that debunked itself, but i really stumbled upon somebody who took this claim to be true now.
I am still not seeing how you debunked any "myth" or statement in the vid.
Orio;2624469 wrote: I aim primarily nerdSlayer, because he obviously didnt even played the game. There was a topic here regarding reddit, and I would not cover that. I respect only those opinions which are based on facts. Not lies, not emotions.
Well quote it. Even if he was just the journalist that dug up the truth it doesn´t make it less valid. Every veteran player can attest for that.
Wishing the real issues away doesn´t make them less real.
Orio;2624469 wrote: Its simple. If regrade of divine+ item does not succeed, it always leads to destruction. In case of celestial its the most non-transparent.
This is an example of a casual player that does not take part in the very little end-game content that is available. There´s nothing wrong with being casual, AA is a place for both power-gamers and the more relaxing traders/farmers/crafters. They all have their place.
Orio;2624469 wrote: I would call Apex P2W, not Pay to Progress, because result is gold. Not labor or resource of sort which has to be used/consumed. But as I said, its a very tedious path.
Out of touch again, some ppl actually funded a whole gear set this way. Usually referred to as whales. If you can pay real money to accelerate your progress in game, it´s p2p, not p2w, but a shortcut.
Orio;2624469 wrote: Its always funny to read that Trion lies to its customer, and in situation when they state some sort of failure, everyone jumps the car and trusts that they are so incompetent :)
You did experience all the issues with every release? I mean first releases of MMOs are usually bumpy, second larger patch maybe too... then there´s a pattern you can´t exuse so easily. I know you will anyways.

Orio;2624469 wrote: When i asked myself "Why" the only answer which made sense was "it fits the story". This is a thing where i judged Trion by their actions.
True.
And many of their actions, especially community handling are very debateable.
Orio;2624469 wrote: This affected 2-3 freshstart servers in EU (october 2014). Effect was devastating mainly on active population. 2/3 of the guild I was member of quit. Wasnt a big guild though, and many of the players were still 2 weeks into the game. Damage was done.

At time when big guilds were unable to recruit anybody, our guild was able to do so. Dont ask me why, but it still works for us. Main ingredient is that people didnt heard about Archeage, they didnt heard about the problems in earlier years.

I take them in game, show them how the game works, and I let them decide if they want to play with all that grind. About 30% of players will continue to play.

I didnt stated about anything if its good, or bad. I stated what is current state.
So you have never been part of a buzzing community except a small guild environment and having the experience that half or more of a full guild leaves because of Trion?
Orio;2624469 wrote: I consider myself a veteran player. I wasnt here when the earliers problems started, and i was not affected by the problems around Auroria.
So why do you try to tell ppl how things aspired then? You obviously have no idea about it, yet you claim your arguments are more valid than that nerdSlayer vid, because... maybe you read/heard it somewhere?
Orio;2624469 wrote: When it came to P2W or showing off in PVP, i simply recognized greed and ambition as a reason why to play an MMO. Thast not a good reason when you ask me...

People I play with, play for fun. That might be the reason why we stay playing regardless obvious blunders. In most cases we were simply not interested by the "you broke this" narrative because we were simply playing and having fun.
There´s nothing wrong with playing the casual appoach. But the game has become stale on most servers. There were times when a simple trade run was pure adrenaline in terms of "will i get through" or outsmart the usual nemesis of traders on the sea. Just one example.
Orio;2624469 wrote: High amount of trade is always a good sign of economy. Since we can calculate total number of delivered packs, we can have an idea how big it is.
You cannot approximate amount of players from this, simply becase not everyone is involved into charcoal. Some players simply live on farming mobs, bosses, Abyssal or similar gold-producing features.
You seem to fail the issue here - 52k packs or 70k charcoal are not healthy. They are below average numbers.

Yes you can approximate the player count - not accurate, but close.
You mentioned you measure a servers health by players in the jury queue, in the other thread, how´s that an indicator?
Orio;2624469 wrote: Every media is a platform for liars. It just depend if they are willing and capable to support their opinions or claims. On reddit is problem that people are just saying their opinions. There is nothing bad about that, but...

If there is a guy, who is supposedly making a media content one-side opinion is worthless source of information. Thats all he mentioned in his video. Those opinions even were not of his own. Thats how crappy that guy is.

This is an assumption. You don´t know reddit was his sole source.

Also there is a reason why some things are only available on reddit as of now. Everybody that followed the original thread knows that reason.

Aeducan
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Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:31 pm

Orio;2624475 wrote:I am absolutely sure that Reddit was his only source.

He did not mentioned single real and current problem the game really has, and active players are aware of them.

Rest of your post isnt worth replying.

You, yet again, still miss the point. The vid was a summary about what happened over AA´s lifetime and led to it´s current state.

In that regard it was accurate.

You cannot prove your claim that his only source was reddit, because it´s only a personal opinion of yours.

About economy:

What was never brought into the calculation was that on EU, there are NA alts that do packs and vice versa.

Those hardly count towards the active player count on the opposite region since they seldom take part in the usual events. CR/GR maybe, even Abyssal and that´s most likely about it.

True, regarding NA players it´s very hard to get numbers. They remain a factor in the reviewing of a servers health though.

You even fail to address the pressing question to the end of the vid - he mentions the re-vamped trade system as an overdue and needed change and ask "has it come too late?"
Thus this video is not about the death of AA, but about "Can it be saved".

It seems this video has triggered a rather harsh campaign of you trying to convince ppl that there is no truth to it, or anything on reddit for that matter.

I am sorry you reverted to the Anita Sarkeesian style of handling critisim. But i can´t blame you for not having arguments that account for the claims you make.

Aeducan
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Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:46 pm

One of the most hilarious statement of Orio was that 200 players in the jury queue is a sign for an active community on our server: Sirothe/EU

One of the most self-hurting statements of his was that the economy and thus the playerbase, is kicking on EU.
Orio is also one of these players that has no alt, thus believing no one else uses alts either or at least very few ppl do use alts.

EU has a single AH cluster for 8 servers and 1 excluded fresh start server.

He claimed that the 70.000 charcoal that go over the AH each day are a good sign for server health.
70.000 CC is about 52.500 packs (of various tiers in the new trade system).

While their production is of course not evenly spread across the servers, it gives you a good idea about the playerbase in EU:


52.500 packs spread over 8 servers is approx

6.562,5 packs per server, pretty much huh? but if you take into account that ppl mostly run multiple packs, let´s say again, like in the original, deleted thread, 3 cargo-haulers worth 9 packs (10 with an alt on the back) that´s about 27-30 packs per player. i go with 27 so 6.562,5 / 27 is:

243 players trading packs. Now since everybody and their mother uses at least one alt we can safely assume the number is more 120 active traders per server.

What is not accounted for is the PvP players, but even of those a good portion runs packs and contributes to the 52.500.

So you cannot just assume we have like 120 unique trader accounts, since this is a PvP game there are a ton more active players around.
Then you have to account for the NA alts earning apex and not participating in the real server life.

THEN - you haven´t taken into account that there are the two main factions Nuia/Haranya - the player count is split between these. Maybe even a nation.

So maybe you get 200 players per server, which is close to the jury queue Orio mentioned.
Some alts also join the jury queue, be it to manipulate the outcome or just because someone did the quest at some point.

He is currently getting quite delusional about many things in the above thread.

It´s kinda sad. Orio was the guy that stuck up his neck for the little players on his server, but atm he´s neck-brown deep into a certains companies ass.

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