It is pay to win, pay to progress is just a convenience description for it, having such things in Eve Online doesn´t make it better.Orio;2644665 wrote:I found on this forum tons of baiters, some of then have been hired by a 3rd party to "write a blog", but anyway I think that there is a way how to keep some points clear.
Most people will point on Apex and state this is "the" P2W mechanic. Whoever does that is forgetting about two important facts which are in MMOs for over last decade.
Your point being?Orio;2644665 wrote: a) Selling accounts and/or items for real-life money
In most cases its against EULA's of the game, because there are parties who are trying to turn an online game into profit. Wow had its own scandal when chinese prisoners were forced by the warden to farm ingame materials which were later sold.
As said above being a greedy son of ... doesn´t excuse doing it.Orio;2644665 wrote: If you point to Apex of being P2W, while there are "games which are not p2w" remember there are still possibilities like this one. And trust me, there is a plenty of ppl who play games for money and not fun.
Pointing out that the publisher isnt participating on Apex-like mechanics may look like a valid point but...
In other terms you pay real money to gain an advantage, it´s really unimportant how that translate into the game it´s still pay to win (over other players)Orio;2644665 wrote: b) Apex-like mechanics have been adopted long ago, for example in EVE online.
In case of EVE there is no "true Free to play", game requires subscription to play. A lot of playing and farming mats may allow you to purchase ingame items which in return allows you to pay for your subscription.
There is no real difference. F2P players need to understand that running an persistent online game 24/7 costs money, true, that justifies subscriptions, but not the rip-off AA offers.Orio;2644665 wrote: 2) "Pay to progress is Pay to win"
Trion isnt offering any weapons, armors or such stuff over its market. Anyone can check that out. Certain people even tried to write on Reddit otherwise, but I suggest to everyone to check it, ingame using free account.
Patron status in Archeage offers some extra perks, but main feature of patron status is Housing and labor. If I will decide to cancel my patron right now, I will still have my current gear, I will still have same situation in PVP and PVE.
What will change for me is labor regen rate, thus gold income for me. I would have to abandon my current ways of getting gold, and I would have to find other ways of making gold or progressing with gear.
The difference between "Pay to Win" and "Pay to Progress" is time factor. Theoretically if i will wave with dollar bills and asking to purchase some Tier 7 legendary weapon, i am attempting to skip MONTHS of farming, regrading... Patron status, nor credit purchases on Archeage does not allow that. Trion is not willing to sell such stuff to me, some players might be...
They are totally providing shortcuts to great gear via apex, no need for multi-accounting in that regard. Also those damned hauler trains were never the problem.Orio;2644665 wrote: 3. Multiaccounting as a form of P2W.
This is the point where I usually want to step in and tell to Trion or any other online gaming publisher that if there are time-gating factors, multiaccounting as a way of speeding things up should not be tolerated (even the one without bots). However payments for accounts are primary source of income for the publisher of MMOs.
That is true for "Pay to Play" games, and even in this case multiple accounts can be source of income for their players (i wanted to say owners, but read the EULA).
So if you imagine the "Server without credit shop" you havent skipped a bit of P2W. Trion is not even now NOT willing to provide shortcuts to great gear, and even when all the items which might be considered to be an advantage being removed, you will still have farmer players, botters or multiaccounters doing such stuff for players who have the coin.
Any online game with transferable assets had the same issue - 3rd party sites that sell stuff or accounts - your point being?Orio;2644665 wrote: 4. Diablo III and its Auction...
If you dont see it, it does not exist? Well Blizzard might have removed the infamous feature of transferring items for real money, but the phenomenon did not stopped to exist.
Pay to Play is a dust screen - you can´t just run a game from one time sales. Especially a game like AA with almost no new content since the Auroria release, just redesigned old stuff over and over again.Orio;2644665 wrote: So in general we are not discussing that any game is or isnt "pay to win". We are discussing following:
a) Full content access
Microtransactions are considered to be a plague of the gaming industry, and I aggree. People usually want ALL of the game content.
In case of game, which is not being sold by the copies for each its datadisk/content update, and getting certain economic advantage (housing, labor which is still timegated), i would really like HOW to sustainably finance the game, except "Pay to play" model.
But is XL or Trion honest about that? Nope.
Gosh. I have to agree with you for once.Orio;2644665 wrote: b) Fair game
There will be always players who are selling accounts and items for real money. Yes its against Eula. But if you believe for a second that there is nobody with multiple accounts, nobody buying or selling stuff for real money, nobody with bots, or other hacks or cheats, you are really naive (with all respect).
Are we calling Reddit fake news again because ppl like to discuss matters without feeling like living in a 3rd world dictatorship?Orio;2644665 wrote: Now there are some "smart people" on Reddit (which "is a dangerous place for narcissistic idiots", not sure who I am quoting) who are asking why I am still playing Archeage. They have nice theories about "Stockholm syndrom" pretending they know what that actually is...
Orio;2644665 wrote: Mentioned all above, I would not play any MMO at all. Nothing... The most obvious answer is that I like the game and i have fun playing it.
Like doing CR all day long?